Curse

Master Knightfall · Dec 03, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

"Every other mmorpg has been successful by having grinding levels and phat loots to go after" - there haven't been very many "successful" MMO's. Off the top of my head I can only bring to mind U:O, EQ and WoW

Wrong again, I didn't list them all, but, let me add some more. AO, AC, DAOC, Lineage I and Lineage II, EQII and more recently AOC and now Warhammer. All boast the type of engines that have high leveling and phatz loot. You obviously know nothing about what success means in the industry. Let me give you the names of the ones that weren't successes, but, not because they had high levels or phatz loots, but, because the entire engine wasn't successful. Shadowbane (pure pvp proves open pvp isn't a successful design in rpg gaming), Star Wars Galaxies (they totally changed from being able to play all things with one charcter to only one thing per character at a time). NCsofts own Auto Assault and more recently Tabula Rasi (both cut off from the mmorpg gaming world because of bad design decisions or lack of interest, but, not because they have high levels and phat loots). As I said before Guild Wars success is not in its design, but, the fact it has no monthly fee. If they had added a monthly fee to it it would have failed and failed miserably because it has little content, no high level rewards or goals and no phat loots. The 3 main things in an rpg the majority of people play and want to play. WOW has already proven this and this has been stated time and time again. The majority and normal people want long term goals when they play these games. The developers of GW obviously realized this is the best working design to keep players, and thus grind and titles were added to GWs and of course those that are lazy or want everything easy and simple have complained ever since.

garethporlest18 · Dec 03, 2008, 02:09 PM // 14:09

That's because a storyline isn't the best way to keep players if it isn't extremely replayable and has a lot of depth to it. By that I mean, if you want to keep players with just the storyline, you're most likely going to have to make it a storyline where you have to play for 1 year just to get through it. Because I know a lot of the people who play Guild Wars get bored with the story after 5 or 6 play throughs. Even if you don't, you can make 20 characters and still beat all the campaigns in under a year, just because the game is easy.

To add life to the game, Anet added grind in the form of titles. A smart move because a lot of people like grind and don't see to know it. They kept it in the form of armor, which is a simple grind now n days but a grind nonetheless. The reason a lot of the generic MMO franchises are successful is because they have you do a lot of work to reach a certain point, and then more after that to get something better. A lot of people find that to be fun work too, well at least most of it.

Also like Master Knightfall is saying, very few people would be playing this game if it had a $15 fee. Because it's stagnant now. The only reason I still play it, is because I can log on anytime. Most of the days in the past have been just to log on and talk to people and not actually play. I do think a good number of people also play because of the low grind for characters, but they also play because it's free. I doubt it's one without the other in their cases.

I also want to mention that a game with a high level cap, well that leveling is the game. In Guild Wars the game starts for the most part at level 20. In a high level game like Wo W or LOTRO the majority of the game is the leveling, then you have things you can do at the level cap. Raids and PvP and stuff like that. So if GW 2 had a raised level cap that actually counted (which it won't) where leveling up made you more powerful, I would expect Anet to make the object of gameplay, that leveling up.

Anet has stated that there will most likely be no level cap, but be a cap on power. When it comes to power in PvE, I think a lot of people want to be better than others in a sense. It's the nature of competitiveness. It happens in GW even, where things are equal in the form of character power. You see it in titles and armor and weapons. But people who can't play as much get upset because they're not on equal ground with the rest of the folks. Then things get less challenging. If Anet want's to cater to those people, I just hope they do it well and not like they did to GW.

zwei2stein · Dec 03, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

That's because a storyline isn't the best way to keep players if it isn't extremely replayable and has a lot of depth to it. By that I mean, if you want to keep players with just the storyline, you're most likely going to have to make it a storyline where you have to play for 1 year just to get through it. Because I know a lot of the people who play Guild Wars get bored with the story after 5 or 6 play throughs. Even if you don't, you can make 20 characters and still beat all the campaigns in under a year, just because the game is easy.

GW Story is not really great, Agreed. Even greatest story works best in single player (Or in MMO that you are supposed to put down after you beat it and then wait for next chapter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

To add life to the game, Anet added grind in the form of titles. A smart move because a lot of people like grind and don't see to know it. They kept it in the form of armor, which is a simple grind now n days but a grind nonetheless. The reason a lot of the generic MMO franchises are successful is because they have you do a lot of work to reach a certain point, and then more after that to get something better. A lot of people find that to be fun work too, well at least most of it.

Well, for me it is pointless roadblock behind which is some content.

Example of it done well: Skillhunter Title. Character basically really needs 1 elite skill to function. Zero grind. But getting more, much more has its "prestige" reward, but it is not necessary from anything in game.

Bryant Again · Dec 03, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Wrong again, I didn't list them all, but, let me add some more. AO, AC, DAOC, Lineage I and Lineage II, EQII and more recently AOC and now Warhammer. All boast the type of engines that have high leveling and phatz loot. You obviously know nothing about what success means in the industry.

Lineage 1 & 2 both have very large gatherings, but only very largely in Korea. It's sees little success anywhere else.

DAoC and EQ2 - in addition to EVE, City of Heroes and LOTR:O (no idea how you forgot those) - have indeed been successful in a sense, but not anywhere near what WoW has achieved. While they do have a few of them "phat lewtz" they all tailor to something much more specific.

WAR has seen a pretty cool reception, but is having a shitload of problems (keep crashes, other latency and performance issues, overall class design issues). They'll really have to get on that if it wants to see a bit more acceptance, but overall it's done pretty decently.

AoC has pretty much fallen on the same path of Vanguard and of many others, i.e. failure. It's barely hanging in there. It's only term of success was when it first came out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

If they had added a monthly fee to it it would have failed and failed miserably because it has little content, no high level rewards or goals and no phat loots.

That would have to be under the assumption that they wouldn't do anything with the money earned from their monthly fee. Since that's bonesnapping retarded we'd be seeing a whole lot more content than we already have.

As is, because GW doesn't cater to that crowd - and because it's near impossible to do so without a monthly fee - PvE builds around being more towards a more traditional RPG sense, not in an MMO sense. There's still progression and high-end loot to gain. It just doesn't last as long as WoW.

Master Knightfall · Dec 04, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Bryant maybe you haven't been watching or reading, but, GW's is more popular in Korea than any other country. Also more recently the merging and shutdown of the 'western' offices of their group. GW's is not the American game of choice I know everyone hates to hear this but WOW is. It now looks as though Warhammer might give it a run for it's money once they iron out all the initial kinks that practically every new mmorpg has upon release. Last I read actually American comes in last as far as sales of GW's goes. So, actually the developers of GW should really be listening more to their Korean base community than America and truth be known they probably did as they added grind to the game and Asians love grind and pvp.

Teutonic Paladin · Dec 04, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Bryant maybe you haven't been watching or reading, but, GW's is more popular in Korea than any other country. Also more recently the merging and shutdown of the 'western' offices of their group. GW's is not the American game of choice I know everyone hates to hear this but WOW is. It now looks as though Warhammer might give it a run for it's money once they iron out all the initial kinks that practically every new mmorpg has upon release. Last I read actually American comes in last as far as sales of GW's goes. So, actually the developers of GW should really be listening more to their Korean base community than America and truth be known they probably did as they added grind to the game and Asians love grind and pvp.

This doesn't PROVE anything, but I think the ladder pretty much shoots that entire paragraph in the foot.

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive/ladder/default.php

Absolute Destiny · Dec 04, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craywulf

Get rid of the "experience points/leveling up scheme" Lets try something else. Instead of saying I'm a Level 12 Mesmer/Monk, It should be I'm a Messmer/Monk Pioneer.

Instead focusing on how much xp you need to go up a level, it should be more focused on the type of skills you use. So lets say you kill 500 Charr using Illusion about 90% of the kills, Your Illusion attribute would go up a point or two.

It sorta reflects training and combat experience, the more you use the skill the more talented you become. You can also switch 25% of the attribute points you gained in Illusion to any other attribute your character has. This allows for growth in other areas.

I would also get rid of professions/class and just allow us to pick 7 attributes and 1 primary attribute, this allow more flexibility. I'd also allow changing attributes but at a cost of losing 25% of attribute points previous gained and 50% loss for changing your primary attribute.

^This^ would be nice.

Also allow players to NAME their "class," and you've brought my second-most-favorite part of The Elder Scrolls to GW: class building.

Though that'd probably piss off some purists who like the MMORPG idea of each player fulfilling a specific role in the party, and would require a different armor setup from GW1.

I think 50 would be a nice level cap, as long as the game story lasted so long you didn't HAVE to grind much to hit level 50 AND had elite content for after level 50.

Grenths Ire · Dec 04, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craywolf

Get rid of the "experience points/leveling up scheme" Lets try something else. Instead of saying I'm a Level 12 Mesmer/Monk, It should be I'm a Messmer/Monk Pioneer.

Instead focusing on how much xp you need to go up a level, it should be more focused on the type of skills you use. So lets say you kill 500 Charr using Illusion about 90% of the kills, Your Illusion attribute would go up a point or two.

It sorta reflects training and combat experience, the more you use the skill the more talented you become. You can also switch 25% of the attribute points you gained in Illusion to any other attribute your character has. This allows for growth in other areas.

I would also get rid of professions/class and just allow us to pick 7 attributes and 1 primary attribute, this allow more flexibility. I'd also allow changing attributes but at a cost of losing 25% of attribute points previous gained and 50% loss for changing your primary attribute.

Darkfall FTW!!!

Clone · Dec 04, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

20. The game has gone too far into Grind Wars as it is now. Screwing with the levels will only make it worse.

KoleAurow 23 · Dec 04, 2008, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

20. The game has gone too far into Grind Wars as it is now. Screwing with the levels will only make it worse.

You do know this isnt "the game" which you are referring to "Guild Wars." We are talking about a game that coming out in the future, Guild Wars 2. lol

Anyways. Who says high lvls means grinding? A 100 cap could take 1 week of normal gameplay to get...We dont know do we? lol

Bryant Again · Dec 04, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

This doesn't PROVE anything, but I think the ladder pretty much shoots that entire paragraph in the foot.

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive/ladder/default.php

Yeah. Lol.

@Zwei: I think we're on the same page here. We both know that it's not the level that matters but more what's built into your character. Like I said earlier the level could be as much as 9000 and as little as 1. The only purpose it serves right now is to show to yourself and others how far you've progressed into the game world.

It's just when someone mentions "no levels", I tend to associate with everything being unlocked at that start with the only "progression" being your skill as a player. If that's what happened at the start of Proph I would've lost interest quite quickly.

EagleDelta1 · Dec 04, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Destiny

^This^ would be nice.

Also allow players to NAME their "class," and you've brought my second-most-favorite part of The Elder Scrolls to GW: class building.

Though that'd probably piss off some purists who like the MMORPG idea of each player fulfilling a specific role in the party, and would require a different armor setup from GW1.

I think 50 would be a nice level cap, as long as the game story lasted so long you didn't HAVE to grind much to hit level 50 AND had elite content for after level 50.

This is a good idea, I've seen it done in Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy 2(j) and a few other RPGs and it provides a much deeper, realistic approach to character building, but if you're trying to avoid grind, this would be the worst way. In the few games I've played with this type of gameplay, I've found myself doing more grind than I ever have in ANY MMO I've played. In GW2 there needs to be a balance of features that caters to both Old GW players and any new players Anet is trying to attract. Keep in mind that Anet and NCsoft are businesses looking to make money and find the best way to make the GW franchise more profitable- the best way for them to do this is to retain some features that cater to the fanbase, but they'll have to add many features that are similar to other MMOs to do this (including a higher level cap and better rewards for those willing to get there). They NEED to cater somewhat to players of other MMOs in order to make more money on the game and they will NEED this extra money in order to give us new content to keep us happy.

Whoever said EVE was unsuccessful is full of it - it's not the same genre of MMO as ANY other MMO and thus cannot be equated with them.

DreamWind · Dec 04, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Bryant maybe you haven't been watching or reading, but, GW's is more popular in Korea than any other country. Also more recently the merging and shutdown of the 'western' offices of their group. GW's is not the American game of choice I know everyone hates to hear this but WOW is. It now looks as though Warhammer might give it a run for it's money once they iron out all the initial kinks that practically every new mmorpg has upon release. Last I read actually American comes in last as far as sales of GW's goes. So, actually the developers of GW should really be listening more to their Korean base community than America and truth be known they probably did as they added grind to the game and Asians love grind and pvp.

Every post you make is more ridiculous. You are so wrong here its not even funny. People need to stop comparing Guild Wars to WoW. It is never going to be WoW EVER. So it has to be something UNIQUE, not a place for all the people who want to play WoW but don't want to pay monthly fees.

Even if you were right about this whole Korean nonsense...you said it yourself we should listen to the Koreans and should have kept GW1 a PvP game and make GW2 a PvP game (since ya know...PvP games are king over there).

cellardweller · Dec 04, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's just when someone mentions "no levels", I tend to associate with everything being unlocked at that start with the only "progression" being your skill as a player. If that's what happened at the start of Proph I would've lost interest quite quickly.

I think most people that refer to "no levels" mean that a freshly created character has equal power to one that has been around for years. The older character may utilise a wider variety of options howver none of those options increase their overall strength - like the difference between a toon that has just reached drocks with 1-2 elites and max armour/runes/weapons compared with a toon with uax (pve skills excluded) and a multitude of different insignia sets/weapon swaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

It now looks as though Warhammer might give it a run for it's money once they iron out all the initial kinks that practically every new mmorpg has upon release.

The darklands server that I play on (the oceanic server with the highest pop) has gone from being full/full in the first week to being low/med during peak times. The popluation of that game is dwindling fast and not because of kinks, but simply because the gameplay isn't very good.

Master Knightfall · Dec 04, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teutonic Paladin

This doesn't PROVE anything, but I think the ladder pretty much shoots that entire paragraph in the foot.

http://www.guildwars.com/competitive/ladder/default.php

Nope it sure doesn't because pvp ladders only represent 10% of any community of these mmo's. That too has been done in polls. I'm talking about the entire 'sales' figures of Guild wars not pvp ladder players. The PVE portion of the game is what makes the most sales not pvp. What it does prove is that a major portion of the korean pvp crowd has left Guild Wars for other games as that used to be much higher a couple of years ago and Korea dominated the tournaments when they did participate more often.

Quote:

(Warhammer)The darklands server that I play on (the oceanic server with the highest pop) has gone from being full/full in the first week to being low/med during peak times. The popluation of that game is dwindling fast and not because of kinks, but simply because the gameplay isn't very good.

Quote:

Xfire Rank
#13 up from #15 yesterday
Highest: #4 on 2008-09-24

Hmmm doesn't look like the population is leaving to me as the rank grows up from 15 to 13 just yesterday.

Master Knightfall · Dec 04, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Every post you make is more ridiculous. You are so wrong here its not even funny. People need to stop comparing Guild Wars to WoW. It is never going to be WoW EVER. So it has to be something UNIQUE, not a place for all the people who want to play WoW but don't want to pay monthly fees.

Even if you were right about this whole Korean nonsense...you said it yourself we should listen to the Koreans and should have kept GW1 a PvP game and make GW2 a PvP game (since ya know...PvP games are king over there).

Not anymore rediculous than your posts. But, at any rate you seem to like to chop statements and quotes in half. You left out the portion that also says Koreans like "grind" as well. Yessir I'm all for grind and pvp in GW2 never said differently.

DreamWind · Dec 04, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Not anymore rediculous than your posts. But, at any rate you seem to like to chop statements and quotes in half. You left out the portion that also says Koreans like "grind" as well. Yessir I'm all for grind and pvp in GW2 never said differently.

Show me how my posts are ridiculous. Also I don't know where you got the data that GW sold more in Korea than anywhere else?? As far as I know the sales of GW in Korea have always been dwindling.

And the second part of your post is just sad. First of all, GW started as a PvP game not a grind game. You enjoy grind? Hmm...thats wonderful...I'm pretty sure you aren't going to get anyone else stupid enough to agree with you about that (even if they do enjoy it).

maraxusofk · Dec 04, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper.nl

My wish: No level cap at all, leveling starts out quick and easy and gradually takes more and more XP and effort to get up. Additionally, after a certain level the rewards of leveling up should be significantly lower to keep the system somewhat balanced.

as long as there will be some benefit to having higher lvl, ppl will go for that instead. imagine if pve was filled groups that required an incredibly high lvl before joining. no cap = bad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

On the other hand Guild wars is a tinker toy and childs play when it comes to its maximum level until you play the ELITE areas. I can SOLO most of the game and take on multiple mobs the entire leveling process thru the game. This is one reason the economy is so borked because now any and everyone can pretty much do this easy soloing and gather up higher end goodies with hardly any effort at all. Yeah I guess carebears would love guild wars since it makes everything so simple, easy to aquire and you can do it in two days. lol

The other thing leveling does is separates players by not only skill, but, power as well. I don't want some noob who someone power leveled in 2 days up there in the elite areas with me who doesn't know what he's doing. GW2 is going to be a PERSISTANT world, totally different from the norm of now and I'd rather not see these snot nosed 8-10 year olds up there in the higher end areas until they have earned that right. It's a lot harder and longer to powerlevel someone to 100 than it is to 20. Oh I know they will eventually make it there anyways, but, at least it will take a lot longer and thus I can enjoy that time a lot more.

That's why I'm really hoping that leveling is nice and slowwwwwww. I remember when it took weeks sometimes to make it from 30 to 31 in Everquest. I'd really like to see leveling experience in that avenue.

Yes and this sounds promising from my point of view. This is more of what "I" want. I really don't know why people are asking GW2 to be GW1 all over again. It's not gonna be that's for sure. Many things are changing. More levels, more power, more soloability less headaches and complaining about hero and henchie ai. Lots of leveling and power and still the ability for a low level to play with high levels but they just won't get all the power of a high level and can at least still play in higher level areas so they won't whine about jimmy plays 24/7 and I can only play 1 hour a day and I don't get as much stuff as jimmy for that 1 hour and I should! wah wah. lol

high levels dont seperate ppl by skill. thats the most retarded thing ive heard on this thread. seriously, go tell ppl that rank (a level indicator of sorts) is an indicator of skill. all a high level does is show how much time someone has spent at the game. it is in no way indicative of a person's natural adaptive ability, which is more important to a gamer's skill.

several things. first off, periods were invented for a reason. 2nd, u really cant figure out why ppl are asking gw2 to be gw1 again? really? do u know the definition of the word sequel? for ur reference

se⋅quel
1. a literary work, movie, etc., that is complete in itself but follows the style and narration of the previous work.

that means gw2 continues the story AND gameplay of gw1, albeit wit refinements. if u want something different from wut gw1 is, go play a new game. it is like b/c u want halo 2 to be different, u would want bungie to completely change halo 3 into a third person action game.

i dont know about u, but i find atking other players funner than c space barring enemies to death for weeks to lvl. gw1 was designed from the ground up to be a pvp game. if u like grind, go back to EQ or play RO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

In real life it takes TIME to aquire EXPERT SKILLS or MASTER SKILLS. You can't goto the store and BUY your skills. Thus it should be this way as well in the game. TIME EQUATES TO SKILL OVER TIME should be the equation not SKILL > TIME.

Think of it this way what if everyone could EASILY goto a store and buy a doctors/lawyers degree (no skills being a doctor or lawyer just buy the skills and then practice on YOU, YOU or YOU and see if you survive or goto jail) how would you like that then? We'd also have such an influx of doctors and lawyers their pay scale would drop like a rock in the sea and everyone of them would be making minimum wage. So down with socialism in games. Russia tried it and failed and it fails in games as well. Bring on CAPITALISM.

no, but there are people who are naturally more talented than others, which is why they can complete their degrees in half the time as other people. not everyone is equal in ability and intelligence. perhaps ur the one who is promoting socialism in games. by ur logic, if a retard takes 6 years earning their bachelor, it means they are better at their major than someone who has spent 4 years because of more time spent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I am placing my bets that Guild Wars 2 will have a model similar to WoW's....grind out your max level until you are required to buy the next expansion which increases the cap.

i dont think so b/c we arent paying in the meantime to keep gw2's server up. hence the more time we spend grinding, the more burden we put on their servers. the more burden we put on their servers without paying in the meantime, the less profit anet makes.

cellardweller · Dec 04, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Hmmm doesn't look like the population is leaving to me as the rank grows up from 15 to 13 just yesterday.

Yep, that graph looks perfectly healthy
.
It would look even better if you could go back further than a month when so you can see that the poplation has halved every month since release. The game is only 3 months old and its last weekend population was lower than the midweek population of everyone's favorite three-and-a-half-year-old-supposedly-dead-mmo:
src.
Guildwars is currently the 3rd most popular mmo on the market (after WOW and Silkroad ) despite not not having pay-to-play level content or support and being largely abandoned by it developers. The next most popular no-monthly fee mmo is maplestory has less than half the number of players. This demonstrates that there is something present in the in the core no-grind, skill>time philosophy of GW that seperates it from other games on the market - an attribute that must be preserved if its sequal is to mimic it's success.

DreamWind · Dec 04, 2008, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by maraxusofk

i dont think so b/c we arent paying in the meantime to keep gw2's server up. hence the more time we spend grinding, the more burden we put on their servers. the more burden we put on their servers without paying in the meantime, the less profit anet makes.

Hmm maybe yes. I think Anet's model is always promise us that the next game/expansion will fix the brokeness of their previous game/expansion so we keep stupidly buying hoping they are right this time. I think Guild Wars 2 will add higher level caps per expansion for incentive to buy as well.